Summer-Interview ARD Gregor Gysi

(See Original here: http://www.ardmediathek.de/tv/Bericht-aus-Berlin/ARD-Sommerinterview-mit-Gregor-Gysi/Das-Erste/Video?documentId=22868054&bcastId=340982)

Becker: Welcome at the terrace of the Marie-Elisabeth-Lüders house right in Berlins‘government district to our fourth ARD summer interview. Sabine Rau and me today have a man as our guest who may speak right after the Chancellor during important debates in Bundestag and who hopes that the Social Democrats will help bringing a LINKE minister president into office in Thuringia in five weeks. We welcome the chair of the faction of DIE LINKE in Bundestag and opposition leader, Gregor Gysi. Welcome!

Gysi: I greet both of you as well.

Rau: Welcome, Mr. Gysi. We want to begin with foreign policy. The U.S. airforce attacks Islamist militia of Islamic states since Friday, most of all to protect religious minorities which got in extremely dire straits. Do you agree with such interventions?

Gysi: I absolutely agree for them to drop water and food for the population, this is important, on the other hand the awareness has grown, that we have to protect the freedom movement there once more. You know, the actual tragic is we wouldn’t have this whole war of „ISIS“ – which is a catastrophe – if there hadn’t been war against Iraq. We always have to remember the beginning, that’s why I believe, we eventually have to learn that wars do not solve the problem of humanity but sharpen them. This can be noted especially now during the marching-through of the „ISIS“-army – which is a catastrophe – there we totally agree.

Becker: But Mr. Gysi, to think of the beginning, of course, doesn’t help the victims. The German foreign minister speaks of a new dimension of terror. The Americans are involved, the French and Brits stand by their side – doesn’t Germany have to do something as well, maybe even as was demanded, to deliver arms to the Kurds?

Gysi: If we deliver armaments to the Kurds we had, for example, also to abolish the PKK ban, we had to take a whole lot of appropriate steps and to reconsider things, but may I tell you something as well? We are in a difficult situation not least because the money for the ISIS army comes from Qatar and Saudi Arabia. Who delivers armaments to Qatar and Saudi Arabia? – Germany! And which is worse, the Turkish state, member of NATO, simply lets the ISIS fighter march through, throuhg Turkey towards Syria, but most of all towards Iraq. This is a scandal, when do we say that Turkey is not allowed to do this? It is a NATO member. Do you understand, we always start mending from behind, no, at the start we have to care for war not being the solution of humanity anymore, quite to the contrary.

Rau: Mr. Gysi, the subjects you raised we want to enlarge upon later on. At the moment we want to basically deal with your position towards military interventions. DIE LINKE opposes military interventions fundamentally. This is, so to speak, her unique feature - DIE LINKE and pacifism.

Markus Spieker (feature segment)

„War is bad and at least regarding the First World War, everybody agrees; regarding the Second, anyway. That clear and simple it should always be finds DIE LINKE and preaches pure pacifism. Because the Federal President is not as strict against military interventions he is scolded by a DIE LINKE member of parliament as warmonger, others side with Putin in the Ukraine crisis. Even so, the liberation of the Nazis is in order for DIE LINKE, at their party congress they criticized that the victory of the Soviet army was not enough appreciated. So military violence is bad except against fascists – then after left reading they are off the hook: the butchers of Boko Haram in Nigeria and Islamists in Iraq.“

Becker: So, Mr. Gysi, DIE LINKE opposes military and violence as means of politics – but regarding Boko Haram, regarding the islamic state, aren’t there also justified interventions?“

Gysi: Firstly, this is not true; we always accepted the state of defence. If another state attacks Germany the Bundeswehr may fight back. This was always our opinion and we never saw this otherwise. Then, of course, the countries are called, if there are armed forces trying to destroy a country, to take action against it. But this is not the task of the U.S.; this is not the task of Germany.

Becker: But Iraq can’t do it!

Gysi: Yes, Iraq has been brought into this extremely difficult situation exactly by the U.S. I mean, Hussein was bad but is the current situation better? Gaddafi was bad but is the situation in Libya better now? We can’t even keep one single diplomat there. Do you understand – this is the actual catastrophe.

Rau: Who should do it then, if not the Americans?

Gysi: I already said that we now have to think about how the Kurds and others can be enabled to reasonably defend themselves against ISIS. There are people right now who want to get in contact with Assad again because there the ISIS army is marching as well, a terrorist army, we all agree, but now all ties with Assad are cut. Do you understand, I believe that we were right in the beginning, one has to pursue another way. If there now is a catastrophe and one asks oneself how to proceed? Then I can only say, most probably one has to defend oneself, and one is able to help too and in general we have to learn to support democratic forces in time, as well as liberation movements. You know, I tell you a different example. We deliver a tank plant to Algeria, they can produce tanks anytime but who knows who is governing there in five years?

Rau: Mr. Gysi, we want to refer to armaments exports in a minute, but we understood that from your point of view there are conflicts where use of force is inevitable.

Gysi: Yes, within your own state, that is right.

Rau: Let us have a look on another heavy conflict, not to say war, namely between Israel and Palestine. Have you actually any hope that there will be a lasting truce in the foreseeable future? And if this were to happen, should Germany possibly take part in international missions for peace surveillance and border security?

Gysi: Maybe three very short reflections: 1947 the UN decided that there will be two states – Israel and Palestine. The state Israel exists but the state Palestine until today does not exist; it can’t go on like that. A state Palestine must be founded eventually within the borders of 1967. I visited West Jordan Land, I also visited Israel, I carried on numerous conversations and do you know, what bothered me most? Israel is not only an occupying power in West Jordan Land, they also humiliate. I tell you one example – Palestinians work in Israel. They have to queue up at two in the morning at the border control to be able to work at eight. If there was enough personnel this could be done in fifteen minutes. Do you understand, always those humiliating acts. I spoke to Israelis on site who completely shared my opinion and said it can’t go on like that and time makes it worse. I am a hopeful person and that’s why I say we need a truce, it can’t go on like that in the Gaza stripe. And then we eventually need the founding of a Palestinian state, of course a safe Israel, a viable and autonomous Israel but also a safe and viable Palestine. If one only considers one’s own interests and never that of the other then this will not come about. I hope the U.S. and all others increase the pressure. Shortly on Germany: In regard to our history we should not send troops there. We may not forget that. I always said the five permanent members of the Security Council can organise the border security, this wouldn’t be a bad idea; the Americans, Brits, French, Chinese, and Russians, let’s see what comes out of that.

Becker: Mr. Gysi, let’s now look to Russia. You are considered as someone who understands Putin. Russia now has gathered a lot of soldiers – 20000 Russians – at the Ukrainian border. Do you actually know what Putin plans? Will he bogart Ukraine? Is an invasion impending?

Gysi: Actually, I didn’t talk to Putin, I talked with others and I have always criticised Putin, always said that the annexion of Crimea is against international law. But I also said that EU and NATO as well have a great share in the whole aggravation, which is true. The spokes person of parliament and others told me, if one would truly take a part of Ukraine now, a further part, East Ukraine, then there would be such aspirations in all other former Soviet republics. If there are such aspirations everywhere this will become an uncontrollable process and they said to me, believe us, if Putin objects to something it is uncontrollable processses. I think there is no other possibility, the conflict between West and East Ukraine is not new, and we had this already in the Second World War. Now, they have to talk to each other, the military solution the president is striving for is wrong. A Russian invasion would be extremely wrong. I hope, all that can be avoided and that they eventually proceed to negotiations. Do you know what bothers me so? In recent years there is always thinking in military terms. Why do they so rarely think about negotiations? Ukraine cannot be solved militarily, neither by the President nor by the so called separatists, nor Putin or NATO and EU. We eventually have to learn to talk with each other.

Rau: Unfortunately the facts are different at the moment. You know that the Ukrainian army currently tries to free the city of Donetsk from the separatists by all means. Isn’t it legitimate that the Kiev government now, so to speak, defends its sovereignty at this point?

Gysi: In our country it is strictly forbidden for the Bundeswehr to intervene in civil commotions. This can’t be done militarily. They have to negotiate. The Russians have been humiliated in Ukraine as well. At first they have to talk to each other. May I add something? I spoke of a new eastern policy and I would like to elaborate what I mean. The great advantage of the EU is that its member states are economically, politically and through its civil societies so intertwined that war among them is inconceivable, this would be complete irrationalism. Why can’t we build such close political, economic, and civil society relations with Russia instead of sanctions so that a war between Russia and the rest of Europe would also be unthinkable? If we did that, we could also influence questions of development, of freedom, of democracy, of the approach to lesbians and gays. If we isolate Russia we have no influence, and there is no security and peace in Europe without or against Russia. That must be understood.

Becker: But we never had that much influence. Volker Kauder called DIE LINKE Moscow’s propaganda group because it criticises the policy of the federal government towards Russia so sharply. What is the Chancellor doing wrong?

Gysi: By this argument from Kauder you realize how much he feels offended. Otherwise he wouldn’t use such a stupid and silly argument. Putin is a lot of things, but he is not leftist, and there doesn’t rule socialism but state capitalism. You know, I am undeceived about that. What the Chancellor is doing wrong is that she yields to Obama. Obama always speaks of economic sanctions. The response will surely hit us and not the U.S. If he really raises the prices for oil and gas, if he for example prevents import of fruits and vegetables not only from Poland but also from Germany as a response to economic sanctions – what do you think how this will affect Mecklenburg-Western Pommerania and other regions? This simply won’t work. It is silly, those childishness with economic sanctions. He punishes us, we punish him, then we create new sanctions, he creates new sanctions, where shall this lead to? Who suspends them later on? Let’s once talk to each other reasonably and deescalate the situation. This is the most decisive.

Rau: Mr. Gysi, we promised to go into armaments export policy. Sigmar Gabriel (Federal Minister for Economic Affairs) has pledged more restrictive guidelines and recently stopped the delivery of a field exercise centre to Russia. Do you agree?

Gysi: I have no objections to this. I am totally against armaments exports, to Russia as well because they don’t even need it. But there is another thing: he stops delivery to Russia but in regards to Algeria, the tank plant, he tells me contracts have to be fulfilled. Why? There must be a possibility to stop that. I ask you once more, do we know who will govern in Algeria in five years? What becomes of the tank plant then? Saudi Arabia received tanks from us with which they invaded their neighbour country. We are the third largest arms exporter in the world. After World War Two we should have decided that we never again want to make money out of wars.

Becker: Let us come to another topic. In regard to the German armaments industry at least hundreds of jobs are at stake. What do you tell the people affected?

Gysi: Conversion. We have gained a lot of experience in the East how to converse. Of course the affected persons need useful employment, I know that, but I just say we should have excluded that from the beginning. Now we have to initiate a process and I also don’t know how we get done with all of that. But restrictively I want no more delivery of weapons to the Near East, neither to Saudi Arabia, nor to Qatar. I want us not to deliver weapons to conflict zones and dictators anymore. We never know what they will do with them. It is not Germany’s task to sell weapons to the whole world.

Rau: But you would deliver to NATO partners?

Gysi: Yes, I know this will go on; whereas I’m really annoyed about Turkey right now because they simply let the entire terrorist ISIS fighters march through, that’s a bit thick. Where now is an intervention by the Chancellor or Obama, telling Erdogan that he crosses a line here, especially as a NATO member? Why doesn’t such an intervention come? I‘m waiting for it!

Becker: Mr. Gysi, at this point maybe a break. You absolutely would have liked to become Minister of Foreign Affairs, they say, but this is probably not going to happen. But at least you may speak directly after the Chancellor as opposition leader. That’s not so bad.

Markus Spieker (feature segment)

It was a long way for Gregor Gysi and last federal elections a little dream came true for him. But then his party focuses on belittling the Greens instead of the government. This way nothing will come of Gysi’s big dream of red-red-green on federal level. Then a left fundamentalist insults the Federal President and then the Social Democrats have had enough. Now it’s his turn – in Thuringia Bodo Ramelow wants to become first left Minister President with the help of the Social Democrats. This would be a signal for the next federal elections. But will Gysi then still be part of it or does he have to watch how others bury his big dream?

Rau: Mr. Gysi, we have just seen it, prime candidate in Thuringia, Bodo Ramelow, wants to become Minister President with the votes of the Social Democrats in five weeks. But why should the Social Democrats be actually interested in making the left party able to govern?

Gysi: So, firstly we are able to govern, that doesn’t require too much. Just look at the government in Germany. What they can do, we can do as well, I can only say. Secondly, I have to say something on the young member of Bundestag from Brandenburg: He used a wrong phrasing but he acknowledged and accepted this. Still it is right that we oppose more responsibility in military. You know, things are not that easy, this isn’t even my dream, what you were referring to. I think the parties are mistaken; my party has to be the engine for an atmosphere of change. If there is an atmosphere of change among the population, Greens and Social Democrats and we cannot really flinch from it. If there is no atmosphere of change there will be no government change as well. Wether there is an atmosphere of change I cannot assess today, the same with you, not for the year 2017. But we have to try to be the engine for that and that’s why I say I’m not afraid of anything. It is by the way not true that I always speak directly after the Chancellor, regarding the Chancellor budget I spoke before her. I am, by the way, completely fine with that – to speak for half an hour and then she has to reply. Those are even better conditions, Mr. Becker.

Becker: And then she has to listen?

Gysi: Exactly! She has to listen and then I listen to her. I find it easier to listen to me, than to her, actually.

Becker: Still, Mr. Gysi, red-red-green seems to remain a dream. You are not considered as able to govern, most of all because of your position towards foreign policy. We heard a lot about this already. How do you want to potentially comply with Social Democrats and Greens?

Gysi: It’s not about that. All parties enter, if there are negotiations at all, with their positions and then you have to see if one can find reasonable compromises. This is indeed the actual art of politics – compromises that demonstrate that you are able to compromise but without losing your own identity. If you give up your identity you will ruthlessly lose afterwards. This is not easy but honestly, I don’t believe that there will be difficulties regarding foreign policy. The difficulty in relation to Social Democrats and Greens will be redistribution. They have organised – by the „Agenda 2010“ and other measures – a bottom-up redistribution, which turns our circumstances even more unjust. Wealth grows but poverty grows as well in Germany, that’s why we have to stop this redistribution. And if we want just conditions, something we could make SPD and Greens agree upon, we would need redistribution from the top to the bottom. This will be the true challenge, this will be a difficulty but this is what we need. I am not immoderate but if the wealth is further increasing like that - worldwide dollar millionaires grew by 14 per cent, Germany is the country with the third-most millionaires. Funnily only the U.S. and China lie ahead of us, they have more millionaires than Germany. But we are rich and we do not a bit collect property tax, not a little increase the maximum tax rate. How then should one ever achieve social justice?

Becker: Eventually you have to answer one more question, if possible. You are elected as head of parliamentary faction of DIE LINKE in Bundestag until next year. Then you are supposed to get a female partner in this function. Do you accept Sahra Wagenknecht or will you leave then?

Gysi: But dear Mrs. Rau, dear Mr. Becker, I will not talk about that with you right now. You can see that I am fit and I do a good job, so everybody in the faction is content.

Rau: Then we will take this as your closing remarks, Mr. Gysi. This was the summer interview with Gregor Gysi. Thank you for your interest. A beautiful evening and goodbye from Berlin.